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the perspective in me says that it would

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be irresponsible science to ignore the

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evidence for at least some kind of

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scientific in the good cases of spirit

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mediumship I'm gonna give you one of

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many examples of my own experience that

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convinced me I actually give messages in

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spiritualist churches and sometimes in

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public services in Lilydale in New York

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that's a spiritualist community near

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Buffalo but I'm chicken because I always

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doubt that I can do it so I asked my

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spirit guide time for you to roll your

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eyes I asked my spirit guide to give me

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messages before I go and you know like

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why not while I'm still in the bathtub

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so I'll have something to say when I get

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there one time I got two rather detailed

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messages and wrote them down before it

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went I didn't want to like have my mind

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make this up after the fact so I had

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them written down before I went one list

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for the littlest girl who's not a baby

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and told about her skill in music and so

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on and the other one was for a guy with

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a beard and I could see him standing

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there in my mind's eye and told about

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how his relatives on the other side were

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holding signs and jumping up and down

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and telling him he didn't appreciate

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himself enough when I got to the outdoor

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service I recognized I could recognize

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the guy out of the 300 people there and

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I could easily figure out who was the

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littlest girl who wasn't a baby but then

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before I had a chance to give these

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messages another spirit medium stood up

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and gave the exact message I was going

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to give to this guy and then another

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medium stood up and gave the message to

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the little girl I was going to give

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except that she said dance instead of

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music I was pretty blown away and I

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thought about the odds of picking the

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right person out of 300 times doing it a

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second time like one in 90 thousand

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times getting a detailed message right

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one time times getting another detailed

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message almost exactly right and

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remember I had many zinger experiences

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not just this one okay so what's the

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status of this knowledge from the

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perspective of normal mainstream science

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it's totally worthless I never even gave

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those messages but a researcher using a

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phenomenological approach could

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interview me and compare my subjective

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experiences to those of other mediums

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which of course is what we did in our

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book in conclusion

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I'm arguing for the usefulness of

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phenomenological methods but I also see

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that be it's great to combine objective

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and phenomenological actually Gary

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Schwartz does this to some extent you

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can see it in his book or he where he

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talks about his mediums own feelings in

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the afterlife experience experiments and

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I this might be a synchronicity the day

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after I prepared this talk what do you

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know I got the latest issue of JSC and

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what do you know there's a

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phenomenological study of eight mediums

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by rock by shell and Gary Schwartz I

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also think we should keep after the

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search for physical mechanisms looking

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at the brain maybe as a quantum computer

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setting up non-local connections between

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brain and mind we need multiple

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methodologies for the mysterious and if

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you'd like to be part of my new

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sociology of science study of

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consciousness and survival please see my

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half page ad in the program we could at

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least do a short email interview or

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maybe I'll see you next year this is

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going to take me years I'm doing a

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documentary and a book I love doing long

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projects thank you okay we have a bit of

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diksha this is great because it seems to

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me that so much of what is usually

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called consciousness can be explained as

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epiphenomena of the brain and I think

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that that the the term gets bandied

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about way way too much

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but this literally lands on things that

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I'm interested in in particular the

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evidence for reincarnation mediumship

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several other things that just strongly

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suggest there's either survival or

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there's imprinting into the environment

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of someone's consciousness or living

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death activities something like that and

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I think rather then explore more

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evidence with mediums how much of your

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activities are trying to figure out what

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the mechanism might be or to parse the

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kinds of information that you're getting

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back as opposed to validating just

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validating the phenomenon itself and

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proving that there's something real I

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live vicariously I'm a sociologist so

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when I did my study of UFOs it was

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actually a study of UFO researchers 91

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UFO researchers and that's what I'm

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doing now in my recent study is I want

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to study the sociology of science how

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people create this knowledge about

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consciousness so I'm fascinated with

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everything I mean everything from the

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tubercles in them in the neurons or

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whatever it is but I can't do that

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myself but I'm I'm gonna talk about it

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I'm gonna be like John Horgan and and

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you know kind of a journalist of science

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by bringing all these perspectives

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together it's really amazing if

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fascinating and see what these different

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people are saying about consciousness so

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yes but I can't do it myself yes

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rosemarie Pilkington here yeah I'm so

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glad to see more people getting into

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this field which most people here know

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is my favorite field to be in right now

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I'm more interested in physical it's the

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same thing

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asking mediums who of course they're

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going to think that what they're getting

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is from spirit but there's really no

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proof of

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that and right I don't like the term

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super side okay

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no being right my sai abilities yeah if

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yeah if all the things this conference

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are true there's no limit as to time or

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place or whatever so what you are

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getting for instance when you picked up

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these pre cognitions I think they are

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could easily be understand that yeah

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right yeah it reminded me something you

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said of Eileen Garrett when she was

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asked because she would go into trance

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and produce he's fantastic

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right thing she would take on the

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personalities of people produce a

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channel people whatever right and they

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said do you believe that there is an

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afterlife and that you're really in

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communication and she said on Monday

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Wednesday and Friday I believe yep on

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Tuesday Thursday Saturday I don't

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believe in on Sunday exactly she's one

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of the hundred and twenty two mediums in

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my database yes right yeah thank you

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uh yeah I'm actually I'm as interested

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in why people think certain things is

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evidence for survival as I am in the

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question of survival I mean I'm

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interested in everything including that

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Dave lighter here

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do you use meditation as part of your

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psychic ability me my my little poor

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little me spirit medium yes I do okay

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yes I do

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have you ever interrupted meditation and

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seen what the effect is it doesn't seem

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to matter very much because I can go in

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just like that now now my wife who's

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really a spirit medium I mean really I

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mean if I can do it anybody can do it

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really but she is very serious about

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meditating a half hour ahead of time

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before she does her a professional

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mediumship but you know one of the nice

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things about her book is we've got like

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what percentage of people meditate what

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per sentence what percentage had spirit

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guides who were male versus female in

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the 19th century compared to the 20th

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century nobody's got a data

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like that but you can look for stuff

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like that and find out what people think

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about those modalities thank you the

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evidence which is often considered most

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convincing for the actual existence of

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these people after death sorry

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Iman sputters right here right after

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death is that the mediums will behave

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like their personalities yes take on

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some of the characters my wife does okay

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I was gonna ask you that especially in

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China especially in China they're much

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more likely to go into deeper trance in

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China the mediums don't like to do that

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these days mostly in the United States

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but yeah oh yeah and my wife would look

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at her arms to look at this rash I'm

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getting and the guy says that's the rash

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my grandfather had you got it you know

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and then but she doesn't talk like

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people or imitate other things but

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she'll get feelings yeah that that's

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quite fascinating to me um I know that

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Raymond Moody had people gazing in black

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mirrors to see their departed ones I

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wondered if you had done any work like

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we've been trying people we've tried

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that in Lilydale there are a number of

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people who've done their own little

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psycho man themes and we haven't got